#or to at least stop persona 3 fans from having a pissing contest with one another

[casualotptrash]

Why the Persona 3 FES vs Portable Debate Makes Me Want to Fly Into the Sun Pt. 3

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3

Da da da daaa!

Part 3 of this lovely emotional rant is here, for anyone who wants to spend their time reading these. With the last two posts, I have mostly tried to be informative or just complain a bit about why this debate makes me want to fly into the sun, but for this post it’s going to go a little different. Perhaps a bit more subjective than the others.

In this post, I’m going to go over everyone's favorite clusterfuck...a definitive version of Persona 3.

Now, as we established in the previous post, we know that the argument of FES vs Portable is essentially pointless because everyone’s opinion on either game is subjective. However, I have neglected to bring up this topic that puts a huge ass nail into this dusty old coffin: the fact that there is objectively no definitive version of Persona 3.

Everyone can argue all day and night about which version of P3 is better, but no one can deny that either version are “definitive.” By definitive, I mean that the game has the most content that is offered, like Persona 4 Golden or Persona 5 Royal. The reason none of the P3 games are definitive is because base P3 lacks stuff from FES and Portable, FES lacks stuff fro Portable, and Portable lacks things from FES. It’s a gamble of whether you want to experience cutscenes, an overworld, and The Answer, or a whole new route with the FeMC and the brand new option of dating male party members and saving...you know who.

One might be able to say FES is definitive because it has The Answer, which I believe is considered canon according to the Arena games. Another could say Portable is the definitive version because it came out after FES, added the FeMC (who is technically canon as per the second Persona Q game), and removes The Answer (which a lot of people said The Answer messed with the core theme of P3). However, the definition of definitive in this case, and with all of the other games, is that the game offers the most content. Arguably, FES and Portable provide the same amount of content, just in different ways. This is why this whole conversation of which one is better, or which to play first, spawned in the first place.

The reason I am bringing this up in this post, about why this whole discussion physically pains me, is because having a real, definitive version of the game could finally put this discussion to rest. At least, it somewhat would. People would probably still argue that FES is the best for some reason.

Now, the argument becomes...well, what does a definitive version of Persona 3 look like?

I have seen quite a bit about this topic, and people seem to really miss some common sense points. For example, they get caught up in whether it would be considered a remake or a remaster. I know some use those terms interchangeably, but the “official” definition for each is that a remake is a game that is made from scratch, while a remaster is made by updating the existing assets and engine. For example, the upcoming Nocturne HD release is a remaster. Personally I find it difficult to neatly fit the typical persona definitive editions, like Golden and Royal, into either of these categories. It may just be me not fully grasping the differences between the two, but I believe they would fit into more of the “remaster” category. It is true that there are new assets and content being added to the game, but it’s so minor that I’m not sure it could be considered a remake. On the other hand, because new content is added it couldn’t just be defined as a remaster because typically the effects and such aren’t even changed that much. It’s just gameplay and story content that is tweaked.

When people get so caught up in what it would be considered, logic seems to...go out the window? For example, in a debate between a P3 remaster or remake, a person made a comment that if a remake was to happen then people would demand that all of the social links be available to anyone. Now, that just isn’t possible for a variety of reasons. There’s no way we could ever mix and match social links to get a preferred grouping. Another issue with this is that if just a remaster was made, then one of the two games would be left out.

This is why I don’t really think about whether a definitive edition is a remaster or remake, because using such strict labels make it harder to judge what could, or should, be in one. This is why I’m just referring to this process as making a definitive edition. That being said, I would consider a definitive P3 game to be more of a remake (not that it really matters) because my ideas would essentially combine FES and Portable, in a way?

So here we go, into my idea of what a definitive version of Persona 3 would look like. (Warning: This will contain spoilers for all of the P3 story and *gasp* may be a bit biased toward Portable because I like it more)

1. Presentation

In simple terms, I would want the game to essentially be Portable...but with updated graphics, cutscenes from FES, and an overworld. It’s easier to use Portable as a base because it’s already closer to the format of P4 and P5, so then adding in the good parts of FES with the cutscenes and overworld are par for the course. As far as graphics go, I would like the models and environment to look more like P3D (aka whatever engine they used for Persona 5?) because damn did the characters get a glow up.

2. Gameplay

Along with the format of Portable, I would also want the gameplay of Portable to be in this definitive version. That means no jealousy system, no fatigue until after you leave tartarus, the vision quest, and the other changes I mentioned in the first post. Sorry FES fans, but yes...I would still want the option of controllable party members. However, a new change that should be added is backup members earning exp. I don’t think baton passes or anything should be added, we don’t want a clone of P5, and the combo attacks in P3P kind of fill this role anyway. The idea of having social links give certain perks with ranks, like how confidants work in P5, is interesting but I don’t think it would be necessary. I would also say that the soundtrack should be exclusive for each side, like how it is in Portable, and that there should be an option to choose which skills are inherited.

3. Social Links

The stance I would take with social links would essentially be how Portable did it, but with a slight tweak. No matter how much it would be cool to date Rio or Saori as the Male MC, or vice versa with Kaz or Keisuke and FeMC, I don’t think any mixing of the two sides would really be feasible. However, I would love to see cameos of those characters in the opposing routes. For example, you see Yuko and Kaz in the female route, but in the male route you could see Saori and Rio at school. That being said, and this is probably one of the biggest issues, I would want the male protag to be able to have social links with the entire party, men included. This brings up the issue of what social links you would cut out because you can’t have two social links be the exact same arcana. Unless they want to add more arcanas to the game, which would probably not go over well either, the best option is probably to prioritize the male party members and then have who would usually be in their place just show up sometimes. For example, Kenji would show up in the social link with Junpei instead of the magician social link just being about one or the other.

I know this seems weird, but it does kind of avoid shafting one or the other. If it was too hard to fit the two together (such as Chihiro and Ken both being Justice), perhaps a few more school scenes could be added where the MC interacts with the school friends that are not seen as much (Kenji, Chihiro, etc.) However, and this might piss off 1% of people but whatever, but the moon arcana with Nozomi (Gourmet king dude) could just be completely taken over by Shinji. Nozomi is a meme, but he is not needed in any way. Also, I would prioritize Yuko in the male route over Koromaru since, although he is a very good boy, he is still a dog. Also, please get rid of the option that you’re forced to romance every girl in the male route, and personally I would say keep in the fact that you cannot date Junpei. In a headcanon sort of way, I totally dig the idea of the MC being able to help Junpei through his rough time after Chidori dies (if she dies?) and feelings grow from there, but from a story perspective I think it’s integral to his character that he friendzones the player if they try.

So TLDR; who the social link is about would mainly stay true to the original route (male route with Kaz, etc. and female route with Rio, etc.), however in the male route the party members would take priority (so Akihiko would take the star arcana place and Mamoru (track guy) would just be featured in the link sometimes), and in both routes Shinji would take Nozomi’s place as the moon. Important note that besides including the other character, the main substance of the social link shouldn’t be changed; aka they should not change the format of the social links to operate more like P5 social links where the MC is just solving all of their problems.

(Sidenote: This is imply my idea on how to include party members into the social links for the male route, however if they just decided to keep the social links the exact same as Portable with no male party member social links with the male route then I’d be fine with that too. It wouldn’t really take away from the game as a whole for me, personally.)

4. Romance Options

Riding off of the social link talk...and I know this is like the least likely option of happening, but please make some gay options Atlus? If we can romance every single girl in the male route, why not just add the romance option for the men too? Yes yes there’s the whole argument about the issue of “making everyone bi” (thanks for erasing sexuality that care more about connections rather than gender?), but I say look no further than how Dragon Age 2 did it. Every romanceable option in that game can be romanced be either the male or female main character (barring a DLC character who is only romanceable by females), and it works just fine. Turns out, no one really gives a shit if it’s “realistic” enough (aka only having one or no bi/gay people apparently?) because it’s a video game and people want to romance whoever they want...because it’s a video game. Even if you really, really don’t like this approach there is also the option of going the Dragon Age Inquisition route, where characters are able to be romanced by certain genders and not by others (race also plays a role in this in the game, since there are elves and other fantasy races and such, but this is not applicable to Persona obviously). This is simply a hypothetical example, but how this would work is that like Fuuka can only be romanced by the Male MC, Akihiko and Yukari could be romanced by either MC, and Mitsuru could only be romanced by the FeMC. Obviously social links specific to a run would be a romanceable option to the MC in their route (as in Yuko would only be romanceable by Male MC because she’s only in her run, and social links like Saori could be a romance for FeMC because she’s specific to her route). I have a gut feeling this would cause an even bigger uproar with the fandom, so having any romance option (barring route specific social links for the route they’re not in) be available for either male or female MC is the best option in my opinion.

Take out Ken’s romance option altogether though. I know some of the language is different, so it doesn’t say you “spend a long night together” or whatever, but that doesn’t really make it any better. I do think it’s fine if Ken has a crush on the MC, and maybe has a whole Kenji thing of thinking they are together cause he’s 10 and kids can be like that, but the MC wouldn’t actually act on this and the player could be given the choice to actively dissuade Ken. The only good thing that came out of Ken’s romance option was the fact that him and Akihiko can argue in Tartarus if you romance them both, and I don’t want to lose that hilarious dialogue.

5. Tartarus

Tartarus...uh...to be honest I’m not really sure what to do with this beast. It’s boring and tedious in the first place, probably by design for symbolism in the game, but I’m not sure how to make it interesting without copying the dungeon/palace format. Perhaps the blocks could be restructured to act more like a big puzzle that needs to be solved, like certain sections of palaces in P5, but also have bosses and shadows thrown in. For example, perhaps one block could be more reminiscent of hide-and-seek stealth tactics while another is formatted like a series of arena-esque gladiator fights. Also probably lower the number of floors you need to climb? It gets a bit ridiculous when you realize there are 264 floors of Tartarus and 99% of them are the same but just with more funky music and slightly different decorations. This job is suited for someone with actual video game making experience though, and not me.

6. Awakenings and Pacing

Let’s talk about some quick fixes to awakenings and pacing of the game. Now, since this is a definitive version and not a true remake, I wouldn’t want them to rewrite the entire story or something. Most of the party member’s original awakenings happen off screen, which can be kind of lackluster. The MC’s and Fuuka’s are the only two we really see, and those moments were really cool in my opinion. Obviously we wouldn’t see Mitsuru’s, Akihiko’s, or Shinji’s original awakenings, but that is fine. Yukari and Junpei also fall into this boat because Yukari awakens before the MC gets to the dorm, and it would be hard to show Junpei’s awakening while also having his whole “reveal” moment when he comes to the dorm to live there. I don’t know if it’s ever mentioned when Ken awakens to his persona, but making a scene to show both his and Koromaru’s would be helpful instead of just saying Ken has the potential and he’s joining, and hearing about Koromaru awakening but not actually seeing it. As for the pacing, I’m mainly talking about the summer time where you can’t hang out with a good number of social links. I would just change this so that you can hang out with school social links during this time more readily, like if they’re just hanging out somewhere in town if they’re not at school. Like I said, this isn’t a remake (and I’m not a video game designer) so I didn’t want to get into how to fix the overall pacing of the story, which can be pretty slow until October or so. My one suggestion is maybe adding in a few extra scenes with Strega before October so it’s not like we run into them a couple times and suddenly they’re a major villain.

7. Shinjiro

(Spoilers for after October) I know certain people will definitely not like this point, but I think the option to save Shinji should remain in the game (and Chidori too). I’ll go into this in another post, but my main reason for keeping this in is because some people really do like this option, so it would be kind of unfair just to get rid of it because other people don’t like it. However, I would suggest a change to his social link so that there is the option to save him or not while also being able to complete the social link. Perhaps after rank 10 would be when you could give him the pocket watch, so that people could get the rank 10 and not be forced to save him. 

8. Extra Content

(Spoilers for the ending of Persona 3 and The Answer) Each definitive version has extra content in the “third semester” (because Persona 4 and 5 both essentially end after December), but in Persona 3 the natural game ends in January. I am not sure if they would try to add another whole months or so on, but because The Answer already exists, but I assume they wouldn’t add extra content in February or something for the MC. For The Answer, I would keep this in the game as sort of the “extra content” but add a FeMC version of this. Obviously it would be largely the same, except with the FeMC and perhaps the male party members could get more of a focus since the female party members get a larger focus in the male route (ie. Yukari breaking down with the keys. Maybe Junpei or Akihiko could take on this role as the people who don’t want to let go). Also, as a possible new addition to The Answer, Shinji could be a part of it if he is saved during the main game. In the NG+ run of Portable FeMC route, if you romance Shinji he comes to the rooftop for that final scene, so in a way it could be possible for him to recover by the time The Answer happens in March.

Now, if Atlus decided to add a more typical “extra content” thing, I hope they wouldn’t try to cram The Answer in on top of that unless they were able to do it cohesively. It might be a lot to have the whole ending of the game in January, come up with a reason to have extra content in February (presumably with the MC still alive, but also combat would need to be a part so then the issue arises of Tartarus coming back or something?), and then have the answer take place right after near the end of March.

Well that’s the end of that I think. This will also be the last post in this little “series” because I pretty much went over everything about this debate that makes me want to fly into the sun. I know the things I talked about in these posts will probably never stop, but I really hope that if a definitive version comes out at least the discussion will change to saying what is good or bad about each game rather than FES supremacy or whatever. That being said, above all I really hope this debate doesn’t discourage new fans from Persona 3 or the series in general, because that would probably be the worst outcome from all of this. It’s a great game, and it’s a shame that the game itself is kind of held back by being split into two (I’m not counting base Persona 3) different forms.

[manifestoonmoralmanlove]

Gormless Wrap-Up

A well-meaning friend gave me a book series that is hilariously bad. The first book was Souless and my riffs were entitled brainless. This second book is entitled Changless and these riff are then gormless.

I mean to say I have entitled them gormless! Not that my riffs are dumb, and the effort I spend on them stupid since I’m the only one who enjoys them. HAHA!

The story is SUPPOSED TO be about how a badass lady wearing a rad-looking carriage dress hits baddies with her umbrella and bangs her hot werewolf husband.  In reality it’s mostly poor attempts at being witty, flirty, and superior.

For the last book check out the brainless tag.

If you want the TL;DR version but want to read these new riffs anyway?

This story is set in supernatural Victorian steampunk England.  Alexia is our NOT LIKE OTHER GIRLS protag.  She is a soulless, which means she’s able to negate the abilities of vampires and werewolves by touching them. She’s recently married a big oaf, named Lord Connel Maccon.  He’s the manchild in charge of the supernatural police with a zillion dollars and he’s totes super hot too ok.  Their relationship is mostly arguments about how Maccon can’t tell her fucking anything.  Alexia has also recently become head of ~Soulless affairs~ in Queen Victoria’s government.  She has a dumb friend named Ivy, a gay vampire friend named Akeldama, a family who’s evil because they do the same shit as her but while being blonde, and most importantly Alexia is better than everyone cause…cause.

So here are my final thoughts on the book Changeless for those interested in such things:

Once again the big problem/perk of the story is the consistent frivolousness of it all.  The book is much more interested in its supposed comedy of manners than the last.  This comedy of manners mostly boils down to lol Ivy is stupid, and look at how uptight everyone is.  For the most part it’s just not that clever and more often than not I’m just rolling my eyes at it.  I will say this book is funnier than the last one.  There are a few jokes that are just so dumb, they do hit me in a good way.

However it’s kinda frustrating when nobody seems to care about the overarching plot at all.  Like there is an active shooter in the castle and they all just shrug and go to dinner and later bed.  For me personally, and I don’t know if people would disagree with me on this…when I pick up a supernatural action/comedy/romance.  I’m kinda there for the action, and hoping to enjoy it being peppered with a fun romance and silly comedy.  Not for the action to show up once every 3 chapters, and most of it is a couple of unlikable buttholes being belligerently horny at one another and a dumb character off in the corner going, “Duhhh what does this button do?” The action at the center should be propelling the rest of the story but rather it just feels as if it was an afterthought.

But I mean…at least I find the comedy funny a few times, I did not find the action at the center compelling at fucking all.  The ~who dun it spy~ antagonist was painfully easy to guess.  She does a piss poor job at structuring the suspense and wastes a lot of obvious opportunities for drama.  The few dramatic moments we do get I spend the time going, “that makes no sense” rather than, “WILL THEY MAKE IT OUT ALIVE?!”  Part of this issue comes down to the fact the book wants you to miss out on feeling the ~BAD~ emotions.   You’re not allowed to be sad, scared, or confused as to the right course of action. ONLY HORNY AND LAUGHING! ONLY HORNY AND LAUGHING!  Not only are we missing out on feelings that could make one more deeply invested in the characters and story…but there are moments that should be sad or scary and instead are just powered through with oblivious humor, which makes the lead characters seem monstrously callous or thick as pig shit.

Alexia was kinda a plucky idiot last book.  This book her utter lack of human empathy and kindness makes her harder and harder to root for.

Maccon’s asshole-osity becomes increasingly apparent.  He has a very bad case of hypocrisy in this book.  He refuses to share basic information with his wife but gets seething mad when she doesn’t tell him much less vital information. It’s really not hot or the sign of a good leader that his tactic for dealing with people is mostly intimidation, with a pinch of violence, and that he was seriously considering hurting his wife over listening to her. The only thing he puts effort into is trying to have sex with his wife, and he really should have a few things higher on his god damn list.  And honestly? He doesn’t really do much for this story at all. Alexia does all the plot lifting on her own.  The only thing he contributes to is the ending, and it casts him in an incredibly dark light.  And yanno it just sucks to know that he’s going to be forgiven for it and probably for as little as a “My bad.”  

I continue to find the Alexia/Maccon relationship beyond irritating but at least there were a couple of moments were they genuinely seem to connect in an intimate way, which were absent from the last book.  To be clear I am not conflating intimacy with sex when I use the word.  The two of them are most definitely not equals in the relationship. I wouldn’t classify the relationship as abusive, but best case scenario it’s not equal and worst case scenario it’s quite unhealthy with Maccon holding most of the cards.  But…I mean I can see why somebody would find their pissing contests entertaining.  But for me they’re child-adults who can’t speak to one another outside of annoyed sighs and dry humping.  Their banter is just not sexy or funny to me.

The Ivy and Tunstell subplot drama doesn’t work well at all.  The story outright tells you it doesn’t really care about it.  And the way it moves forward is clunky as all get out.  In particular when they just make-out out of nowhere.  I know they were trying to reconcile with how Tunstell saved her…than let that be the event that catapults them back together.  Let Ivy look up into Tunstell’s eyes after the rescue and breath, “….You saved me…and after all those awful things I said about you.”

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh who cares!?

Speaking of which we get a lot more out of Ivy this book than last and I’m just not impressed with it.  I predicted that Ivy was going to be the comic relief dumb friend.  That Alexia would keep her around for her own ego and just be condensing to her the entire time.  Last book we didn’t get that. THIS BOOK WE GET WHAT I PREDICTED IN SPAAAAAAAAADES! Ivy is not framed as lovable, and not even for a second does Alexia interact with Ivy outside of irritated condensation she hides with a snide quip.  Sure Alexia can be snarky toward her, and Ivy frustrated but there is no affection from either of them.

I’M HONESTLY NOT SURE IF ALEXIA IS CAPABLE OF SUCH A THING!

LeFoux was cool though, even though there was no reason why she had to lie about Maccon asking her to keep Alexia safe.  And like the thing about their two dads knowing each other is interesting but honestly there’s probably nothing more to it.  I’m not a big fan of Alexia sexually assaulting her for no reason, or how Alexia needed it explained to her that lesbians are real.  But like, I’m glad the story is getting gay.

I’m kinda confused why Channing was even here?  She OPENS THE BOOK with a conflict about this character and then nothing of import comes out of him or the situation at all.  The whole team up with Biffy and Lyall sub-sub-sub plot should either not have even been in the book at all or there should have been significant more effort made to make their antics increase the drama for the main plot.  I suspect Channing is going to be more plot important next book.  AKA the next Angelique.  

Just like last book the antagonist is super weak.  I mean you could argue that she wasn’t revealed as the big bad until the 2nd to last chapter, you couldn’t build on her much…however her spy antics were throughout the book and none of it is very compelling. There could have easily had a better confrontation.  That Alexia confronts Angelique about spy stuff, and Angelique breaks out crocodile tears explaining, “NO it was LEFOUX!  I’m so sorry my lady, I couldn’t stop her!”And for a second Alexia questions it and hesitates but in that moment of hesitation BLAMO! STAB IN THE BACK! We should have had that stark contrast between her meek diligent servant persona and what a manipulative conniving bitch she’s supposed to be.  Make that betrayal FELT you know?

TL;DR

What’s good?

This book is more humorous than the last.  Again it’s just that NO-BUMMERS train chugging past a lot of dumb jokes in a steam-powered train straight into werewolf-fuckville.  The story getting gayer is enjoyable, and I have genuinely not read a het romance that teases any lesbianism. (Though I don’t read many het romances anyway.)  Despite my distaste for a lot of the characters and how this is all written, LeFoux was genuinely a lot of fun!  Her flirtations were WAY sexier than anything Alexia/Maccon had…but I don’t know if that’s cause I’m gayer than I am straight WHOOPS!  I will say that I think the pacing of the action in this book was better than the 1st.  Also the ending, despite me not caring for the characters, was a pretty good gut-punch.

And let’s be honest, in a trilogy the middle book is the hardest to pull off.

What’s bad?

Everything falls apart on any kind of base analysis.  The story spends way too much time holding your hand on stupid details like the current state of LeFoux’s dimples or is that other hot werewolf, who’s not plot relevant at all, still hot?  The mystery aspect was easily guessed, the plot does not hold water, and if you take a step back from any of these characters…most of them are completely distasteful.  Also this one featured much more open racism and sexism.  So booooooooooo. Would not recommend.